Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome back to the Employer Bland Podcast.
Today's conversation is one I've been really looking forward to because it's about the moments employer branding is tested and not necessarily celebrated.
I'm joined by Stephen Brand, global employer brand lead at Rolls Royce and a key figure on the global EV circuit.
In this episode, we're going to talk about employer branding during layoffs and the harder moments. What typically happens inside organizations when things get tough, why so many companies still treat layoffs as a communication problem rather than maybe a trust problem. And what responsibility employer branding should have when people are leaving and not necessarily just joining.
Finally, we'll zoom out and look at the whole role of employer branding itself and is it changing? Is it evolving from promotion to stewardship, from creativity to judgment? And what skills future employer brand leaders might really need to have to navigate what's coming next.
So, Stephen, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Slightly terrified. Now, I've heard the range of topics are going to be covered, but I'm sure it'd be fine.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: You'll be great, I'm absolutely sure. But how's things? Are you. How are you keeping?
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Good? Yeah, we're talking about busy times, but frankly, you know, I don't know about you, but busy means there's stuff for me to do, so I feel more confident and comfortable. The busier I am when it gets quiet is when I get nervous. So, yeah, yeah, it's good to be busy. So, yeah, lots going on.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: Oh, good stuff. And, and to be honest, I can see why you have been so busy this last like six plus months. I saw your new Rolls Royce activation last week on, on LinkedIn. I know it's been across many, many other channels, but an amazing piece of work. So, yeah, before we get into our topic, I just wanted to throw some virtual flowers over to you for that because they, yeah, seriously, you know, impressive piece of work. So, yeah, nice.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of weird. One of the things I've always found about employer brand is how interesting it is to get inside and under the hood of some of these organizations.
And sort of seems incredible that until this point there'd not really been a, a single proposition tying Rolls Royce together. It's such a name that you think, well, it must have been, it must have had, but it would just, it's one of those things that I think hadn't happened before. I think the brand, the customer brand was always so powerful. Maybe it wasn't felt necessary up until this point.
So really interesting piece of work to, to get Involved in as again, as we're saying earlier, when you put a lot into something to see out in the wild is, is a really nice feeling sort of relief combined with, you know, that, that sense that it's, the efforts were worth it.
So yeah, we'll see how, see what the next 612 months bring.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely.
So look, today's topic, we're going to be talking about employer branding during layoffs and, and maybe some of the harder moments.
So to kick into the, you know, I suppose to set the scene really. Stephen, you know, when layoffs happen in isolation, what tends to happen to employer branding from your perspective, you know, inside organizations and not this is obviously not necessarily even companies that you've worked with, but just your general kind of, you know, perspective on this and what you've observed, you know, inside the industry.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: So I think that this is where we get to the kind of the image problem, I guess, for want of a better way of describing it, maybe the employer brand still has in terms of what it is and what it's for.
Because I think what tends to happen is we as employer brand leads. But more obviously some of the senior stakeholders that we work with get very nervous about the idea that we should be doing any employer brand activity when layoffs are happening, when consultations are happening, when any kind of process like that is ongoing. I think there's a sense that employer branding should, should, should, should cease because it would be insensitive to continue.
Which I think is really about the sort of level of understanding perhaps that, that those stakeholders have around the fact that employer brand doesn't begin and end in recruitment marketing and the external attraction and the sort of tub thumping about what a wonderful place to work X, Y, Z businesses.
And it's actually a rather more sort of complicated and nuanced activity than that. So I think, yeah, I think that's what tends to happen is there's this sense that of all the things that we shouldn't be doing right now, presumably any kind of external work about what a great place to work we are should immediately cease for fear that yes, reputationally you're seen clearly as insensitive. And there is an element of that.
I think it's.
Short sighted, I guess is the best way of describing, I understand it, it's a short sighted approach that doesn't sort of, I think, account for the longer term implications of just turning everything off or understand that while something might be happening in this part of the organization, in this function or market or sector or skill.
Yeah, there are other Things happening in other parts of the organization where what you're doing is driving their ability to deliver that. And if you switch us off because there's a population here, then we're not able to service other areas of the business that maybe are in need of support. I think it's my experience is rarely we're either hiring or we're laying off. It's bits of the business are doing different things, they're in different stages of growth or maturity. And so there's usually a combination of things happening. So it's hard to look at it just in black and white.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I can see that. And do you think during those tougher moments there's often kind of almost a fear of saying the wrong thing? So sometimes it can be better to kind of just step back, batten down the hatches a little bit, let things blow over and then kind of, you know, roll into kind of the next project is there. Do you think there, there can be that kind of fear of saying the wrong thing? If we say certain things, could there be like legal ramifications, for example?
Do you think that's often why they feel, you know, certainly, you know, as an observer, there seem a lot of organizations just seem to be muzzled in some way when these, you know, events take place.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I think it's probably exactly that. And again, not that I don't understand and completely, you know, sympathize with, with the circumstances and with that, the difficulty of that decision because I think naturally we would be risk averse either as organizations or as individuals representing that organization. I think we're seeing that with a lot of the stuff that's happening in the US around De and I and, and you know, having to step on almost our personal beliefs, our personal emotions of that sense of who we are as people and toe aligned because we're not really sure what the implication might be of this thing that we said and we meant this, but somebody's, somebody's interpreted it this way and now that's gone big and it feels, you know, that, yeah, that can happen to any of us, particularly I think the higher profile you are as a, as an individual or an organization.
So I absolutely get that it seems safer and more sensible for your business, for your, the safety of your career and all of these things to just say nothing.
But I think, I guess again, it just, it just sometimes feels a little bit like there is scope for organizations to be a bit braver.
Yeah, I get why that's hard.
And you know, we find you Find it at all stages. You find it in the crate and the messaging around your employer brand all the way through to how you behave, how different you really want to be.
It is difficult to be brokers. If you put yourself out there, that's got sort of those, there's sort of two sides to that, to that sort.
So I understand why, why it is a challenge. But I think that's.
If I was a candidate and I'm looking at an organization and what they really believe in and what they stand for, then I sort of expect them or I want to see evidence that they really stand for that. And that means standing up when the wind's blowing the other way, not just sort of piling on where it's all going swimmingly. That's really where you're looking for that evidence. And I think that that was often, that's often a little bit lacking.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's such a good point because I think, you know, obviously this affects internally and externally, but the point you just made there about being a potential candidate and you know, maybe there's been, you know, some layoffs in an organization, it's obviously a terrible thing and affects so many people in so many different ways.
But hiring often at some point, you know, weeks, months later, you know, you know, we'll get turned on in, in those teams that maybe have the layoffs or other teams or you know, wherever, it doesn't really matter. But in that organization.
But as a candidate, there's kind of, I feel like there's, there's, there's a couple of things. You've got kind of, there's messaging and there's kind of comms that come out and candidates would be consuming and then there's that, that kind of, that trust layer that you can'.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Touch.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: It's not like a thing, it's more of a feeling. And you know, from.
Do you think as a candidate? You know, because my own personal feeling is that I think if I was a candidate and I knew that particular organization had had some hard moments and I'd read about it, I spoke to people that everything looked glossy, everything looked really nice. And I went through this really sanitized, like, you know, application and recruitment process, it would feel, I don't know, I don't know how I'd feel about that. Would you, in your experience and just things you've seen work well, maybe haven't worked so well.
Do you think some really honest trust building messaging would work really well? Like, I know we had these problems. You probably saw this Stuff.
This is where we're looking to head in the future and this is, you know, whatever it is. But what are your kind of thoughts and feelings just about that kind of messaging versus trust repair? I suppose.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think, I think the more honest you can be, the better. I think, you know, your point is a really good one, which is you're not the only sort of bound of information.
So you have like your, like your value proposition, your one voice among thousands offering opinions and insights into your organization, offering their hot takes and, and whatever. So you not saying anything doesn't mean it's not out there. What it means is it looks a little bit like you don't want to admit it, you don't want to talk to it, and you miss then the opportunity.
For example, if you're talking about needing to let, you know, individuals or people go, which like you say is, you know, is not a nice, you know, as humans we don't like the idea, but we don't like doing it to other people. It feels that, but it doesn't necessarily. Not inherently a negative thing from a business point of view in terms of the context behind it, why it's coming about, what it, what it means. You know, what if, if there's silence, there's no opportunity to give that context, that explanation.
I think perhaps less so for some, some emerging talent audiences that are coming new to, to the workplace and the workforce. But certainly I think once you've worked in a few organizations, no one is blinkered to the realities of the world of work and that it means people get hired, people leave. Sometimes roles get made redundant, new roles get created. You know, this is the cycle that we all live in and ignoring it, pretending it doesn't happen at our place.
I don't think any candidate is going to look at you and go, what, you've never fired people? Amazing, brilliant. Yeah, I'll join.
Not only does that drive entirely the wrong behaviors because it's basically people will come along that go, right, I can relax and don't really have to work because you never fire people. Brilliant. So you don't want those people anyway. But also it's just not, it's just not the reality. So I don't, I can't imagine candidates really buying. So what I think they would want and like to know is, you know, what, what drives it, like to your point there exactly, that it's, we've been through this, this is, these are the decisions we had to make. Now we're here, we're able to grow because this is happening. This is our vision. You know, it might not be perfect yet, but we know where we're going. We've been through, you know, that sort of thing says, right, oh, Christ, that might scare the out of me. And I might think, I don't want to. I don't want to work there because it still feels like it's not properly solid yet. But I can make that call.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: That's not right now.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: And I feel informed enough to make that. That decision. And that to me is. Is sort of the heart of the job for employee brand is not the tub thumping. We are great. It's letting people that might want to work inside and that can't come to work here because we have crazy, you know, security rules and things. They can't come and have a look. So we have to give them enough information to say, are we right for you right now? Notwithstanding your skill set and your experience and those kind of things? Let's say you could do the job technically, would you want to do it here, right now? Where we are, where you are in your career and what you need is that. Is that right? And if it's not, that's fine, Good. You know, go find somewhere you will be happy. We'll talk again in a couple of years. Maybe we're different, maybe you're different. That's fine. But I'm. Then not wasting your time.
You're not investing time in something that will. Might ultimately feel like it's let you down in some way by misrepresenting the role, the organization, whatever. I'm not taking up time with colleagues to run that process, all of that. That's what. That's what I'm doing. So, yeah, I think it's.
I think the silence or the avoidance of anything like talking about restructures and layoffs and things is a natural instinct. And I completely understand. But I think sometimes it misses an opportunity to let us do what our job really is, which is making sure our audiences understand what they would be coming into, what's brilliant about it, and where the challenges will be so that we're bringing people in that know what they're getting into and that are up for it and really want a piece of it, because that delivers real value into the business ultimately and to them. Right, because they know what they're getting.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
So when we're looking at the, I suppose, employer brand, employer branding as a function, kind of really, I suppose, fully understanding context around these hard times, so they can manage messaging, they can manage like, trust Building and all of these other things we're talking about linking that into. So during those harder moments, you know, there's exits, there's off boarding, exit interviews, there's all sorts of kind of activities that take place to try and really understand what's going on, what could have been done better, all these other things.
In my experience, you will have much sort of, you know, finger, you know, way, way closer to the pulse than I in leadership roles in these functions. But in, in my experience as an observer, it doesn't seem that employer branding necessarily has a huge part in those processes.
So the exits, the off boarding parts of the process are often kind of things that seem to happen.
Employer, brand are kind of doing a lot of damage control in these moments and figuring out what needs to be done next. But do you think there is mileage to bring employer branding closer to those activities so they have their finger much more firmly on the pulse of the context of actually what's going on during these, during these times?
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, I think there certainly should be. I think again, the fact we haven't done it so far is still that where we are seeing how we are viewed internally by my colleagues is still not quite right. And again, I don't say that across the board. I'm sure it's different in many organizations. My experience overall has been that we're still very much aligned with the world of talent attraction and acquisition and bringing people into the organization and less involved when it comes to them being there and their experience while they're there. And then as they, as they off board, whether that's sort of voluntarily or otherwise, I don't think we're close enough to that, not necessarily in terms of should we own all of the messaging and all of that? Because I think, you know, there are specialists, there are processes, there are ways that that should happen. But in terms of us being able to understand what's happening, being able to hear what's happening and being able to think about how we're positioning the organization in light of those, in light of what, what's happening and in light of what we're hearing, I think that would absolutely make sense in the same way as, you know, us being closer to understanding, not like both hand, what is the five year business plan? Where are we going?
If I'm hearing that just as it's interpreted through talent acquisition demand plans for the next year or two, but I'm not getting access to and able to question where are we going? What are we doing? What are we building next?
Then as we think about how we position the organization for the medium term, to help candidates really understand where we're going, I don't know, you know, beyond getting into generic words like we're growing, I can't. There's a limit to what we can do. I think that's where you end up with a lot of sort of brand platitudes, because we're kind of a little bit like we're seeing it through a fog or something.
[00:19:14] Speaker A: We don't.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: We're getting words like growth because the demand plan says we're hiring more than we're letting go. But I don't know enough about what the thinking is behind it, what the vision is for, where we're going to end up to really articulate that with. With certainty and with distinction from others, that's one thing where I would say, and obviously it's not as easy in other organizations, but here, certainly at Rolls Royce, that certainty of vision and that clarity of. Of how we're going to get there is more pronounced than I've experienced in a lot of places for a variety of reasons, but it's just really clear. Not that I'm close to it necessarily. So structurally, I think it's still quite right, but the visibility of it and the certainty about where we as a business are aiming for is much clearer. So I can, I feel then I can take that and confidently start to think about how we position ourselves in a way that's true to us, but also a bit different from what's happening anywhere, anywhere else. And we can do it with. A part of the idea was a tone of voice that is a bit more certain and confident and not sort of, oh, thinking, a bit apologetic and a little bit fluffy around the edges. It's like, this is what we're doing, this is where we're going. And it's going to be, you know, challenging and demanding and tough and we'll probably, you know, fire people and change things and. But we. This is where we're going.
If you fancy a bit of that, we're the place. But if you don't like the sound of the demands that will put on people that work here, then probably it's not for you. And that's cool, but better, you know, now rather than find that out in your first three weeks, three months, six months, that. That sort of thing.
So, yes, I think being, again, not to. Not even necessarily, you know, baby steps, right? Not necessarily to influence or anything, but just to hear it firsthand, whether it's growth decisions or it's reduction reprioritisation decisions. I think understanding it helps make sure that the way it's, it's presented then we can influence because we understand the candidates in a way that corporate comms don't, the exec doesn't, that sort of thing.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think it, it feeds into your previous point as well a few minutes ago about self selection in or out, you know, and not everything being glossy and people understanding maybe some of the hardships that could be ahead.
Do you fancy this or do you not? Because that's fine, you know, that's that there's a couple, there's two doors here, you know, you can figure out which one you want to, want to kind of walk through. But I suppose during those like, you know, off boarding exits interviews, those types of things there could be, and this is just a generic kind of, you know, thing in my head but there could be a, a common theme coming through I suppose, couldn't there of, you know, someone that unfortunately may have been laid off from the, whatever XYZ department in Y location, wherever it is, but they've been laid off and they're also hearing that it's, it's going to be an eight year cycle to rebuild that division from scratch because there's been this mayhem or whatever things have gone you, whatever things happen, don't they?
But in employer branding, understanding those nuances and understanding those stories, I'd imagine that you know, you're part of the cycle that helps to rebuild this kind of thing over here. And understanding and having that storytelling from those exit interviews and the off boarding process, it must kind of, it must feed into the work employer branding are ultimately going to be doing for that part of the business.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right. So I think it helps us sort of plan and think about how the organization, our work is likely to change. I think also with things like I'm not a fan but like glassdoor reviews, sentiment like you get from off boarding sentiment you might get from people, their three month, you know, rolling off probation, having just joined interviews, all those kind of things, I think while they might happen via other teams and via other functions, I think us, I think having access to that data we're able to, I would grandly suggest that we would be able to apply insights to it that maybe those teams wouldn't be looking for.
So what your line manager maybe is looking for when they're sharing with you the three month rolling off your probation survey isn't necessarily what I would be looking for. If I'm thinking about how did that sort of really go, what sort of a job did we do of bringing somebody in who knew exactly, you know, whose expectations have been matched, you know, they're still here. So the hiring manager's like way but you know, where are there any signs that, you know, we missed the trick at any point in that process in terms of that expectation management which helps then us feed things into the business because again it might not be about thing that we did, the onboarding journey or there's a point in the process where we're falling down, we're not losing people, but it's being picked up.
We think we should be addressing it proactively and not wait to start losing people as a result of this part of the process not working. And I think that's sort of, you know, lens that we would look at some of those data points through to be able to feed back into the business, to be of use to the business rather than again be sat out there as apparently just sort of a sort of a tub thumping mouthpiece to shout about all the people we're hiring. Our job actually is to look for ways to be, to be useful to our colleagues and to the business. And that's one way is, you know, the data we get from candidates and from the markets we're involved in, great. But also from our current people, I think we look at that in a slightly different way that can add some value to the organization in terms of. These are some things we should be thinking about before it becomes an issue rather than waiting 12 months, 18 months and then it's become an issue. Let's stamp on it now and maybe they do something about it, maybe they don't. But it's another thing where you think, ah, yeah, I thought, I hadn't appreciated that that was useful. That was good to know that theme there. Whatever it is they do, turns out they don't just buy shit on LinkedIn or do some TikTok. Whatever they do, you know, they deliver me some sort of insight LED stuff, some value stuff and I think that's where you start to get more noticed by more people internally and just as a, yeah, self protection mechanism. I think in this day and age, the more useful you are to more people, the safer you'll probably feel.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: Such a great point. I'd imagine as well that during tougher moments and then subsequently, you know, off boarding exits, I'd, I'd imagine, and this is more of an assumption than anything else, but people would just generally be in A more, I suppose, more honest, authentic, transparent, you know, mindset. You know, they're thinking, I'm leaving this place anyway.
And if, if, if this company does actually, you know, work with me in a really nice, empathetic, you know, sensitive way, people will be willing to share, but probably more honestly than they've ever shared before. They might have had all these gripes when during the heydays and things are going really well. Oh, is everything going all right? Are you okay?
Even though probably there's a load of shit stuff that's happening, it's like, yeah, everything's fine, you know, and they carry on. These are actually moments that, yeah, that, that test of like, no, there has been a lot of crap stuff actually, and there's been a few happy with and you know, you said the values were A, B, C and D, but A, B and C. I personally haven't felt them because of these reasons, whatever it might be. But it probably is one of your only opportunities to really try and extract some of that honesty and transparency. And I think involving employer brand into that part of the process, it could be pretty invalid. You know, maybe even just from a value sense checking perspective and probably so many other reasons. But would you agree, like the general assumption that you'd expect people to be probably slightly more open about maybe being prepared to share some of that stuff?
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think you'll probably, you'll probably get a mix depending again. But I think how, how open but in a, like in a practical and constructive way people are prepared to be, will depend on how they've been treated up to that point. So it's a little bit of a, like if you're getting a lot of either people, not so sort of. I think it's a little bit like when you look at like internal engagement post surveys and you go, oh man, there's a lot of people being negative. But it's like. But they're still interested enough to engage in the conversation and say, I want you to fix this, you know, and I hold out some hope that by telling you about it in the survey, you will fix it. That's what it tells me. Yes. It's not nice to hear that those people are still invested enough in their job, in their people and what they're doing in your company to tell you about it and give you an opportunity to fix it. The real worry is when you look at it and you go, everybody's happy. Look, it's 100% nobody's and you've got like 30% participation. Well, everybody that, yeah, there's 30% are happy, that's probably 70% not even interested in filling in the survey, can't even take five minutes out to tell you how they're really feeling. And that is much, much worse than having a long list of gripes you're prepared to share. So I think, yes, if you can get, you know, if you're getting, as part of that off boarding, you're getting people prepared to sit down and really constructively go through areas where they feel the business fell short on values or a manager or team didn't deliver the values. That's hugely, hugely useful to sort of gather up together to see if, you know, are there any trends that recur. But also if the majority of people won't talk one word answers or won't share detail, don't see the value in sharing, then that tells you even more about maybe how you've treated them up to that point, that they're sort of already so disengaged that they don't want to offer you anything, that it almost is, is again a way of them sort of helping you be better. It's like, no, it's past that now. I don't care. I'm not giving you, yeah, you anything. I'm just walking and, you know, I take my gripes with me or I take them straight to LinkedIn or I take them straight to, you know, another social channel. And that's so, yeah, I think, I think whether it tells you good things, bad things, it, it always tells you, it always tells you things that are useful because you're right, it is. These are moments of sort of maybe more, more honest moments than, than we often have because we often have sort of other things we're thinking about when we're, when we're off, how things are going at work, if we're still there, we're thinking about who manages us, who might manage us next when the performance reviews are up, who I sit next or, you know, you're thinking all of those kind of things, weigh into how honest you are. And yeah, there are other moments where maybe you care less about those things and you'll be a bit more direct. So it can be really, really useful, but only if people up to that point feel like you're listening, that you value they've been treated well enough to share with you how they're feeling because they're probably, you know, obviously they're in a particularly vulnerable moment. So takes something to still want to, to be open with you.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah, of Course makes an awful lot of sense and, and looking kind of during these tougher times, Stephen. So, you know, if we look internally, so this stuff's going on and you know, these situations are obviously awful and people, you know, exit they off board.
But you know, during and post those situations, there's obviously, you know, and, and these, these things, you know, just like we were talking right at the top of the conversation, you know, these things happen as a, as a normal cycle of business. Like commercially, most businesses can't survive without going through, you know, periods like this, which is unfortunate, but it's, it kind of exists within the ecosystem of, of business generally. But you know, during and post those scenarios, there's then, you know, you know, there's then the survivors, the people that, that remain in the organization and there's like the aftermath of what happens next. So, so people talk a lot about survivor's guilt, you know, in your experience and what you've observed, you know, is that a real thing? And you know, how does that, I suppose, show up in, in at work?
[00:32:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's, it's a real thing. I've been through it, you know, I've worked at media agencies of various, you know, and this was absolutely part of almost, it was part of the furniture, as in this sort of boom bust way of running it. But, but equally I think shows that there are ways to do it and ways not to do it. And I think, you know, there's, there's certainly one experience that probably over the course of, I don't know, maybe 12 to 15 months, there must have been four or five rounds of cuts.
And the atmosphere then among those who, who are still there after the round of phone calls each, each time is, you know, really challenging. What it does or what it did in, and again, I can only talk to, to my case, what it did for us was those that we create. There's a real fierce bond between those that were left, but a real separation to business leadership. Yeah, in part because I think, and again, you don't know what other pressures are coming to bear, what advice is being taken, but the understanding and the sort of sense of, well, where does it end? Are there more rounds after this? All of that kind of thing felt very, you know, you're sort of entirely or almost entirely in the dark. And so that, so therefore there is no trust. Trust inevitably goes because you're not being told anything. You don't. It's not necessarily somebody telling you lies that breaks trust. It can also be broken when somebody just doesn't communicate at all. You know, you can't trust somebody you never hear from except in the good times.
So I think then what happens, and certainly what happened in this case is that even when that process is, is over, you've survived, but really your heart's already kind of out the door.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: And yeah, you're in survival mode at that point, aren't you?
[00:34:54] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And the first opportunity you get, you want to go because. Not because you don't like the people you work with, not because you don't like the work that you're doing, but because the people you work for, you don't, you don't want to work for them anymore. And there comes a point where that's enough to take the risk to start somewhere else.
Can take a lot to take that jump once you're settled somewhere and you know how things work. But, yeah, you can absolutely break that. And, and I don't think that's easy to win, to win back trust. I think, as we famously know, trust can go in a moment, but it takes years and years to build. And, you know, I still won't, you know, that if that organization were to come looking, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back because of that experience. And I know they're different and the people there and everything's different, but, you know, but it guards me enough like, no, I don't. Just couldn't. Just couldn't go back. And I think, you know, that was just at one support agency. I think it's probably how people, how people do feel, particularly if you've invested in it, not literally, but where you've really given a lot of time for it. And, you know, you understand that the business, the business doesn't care too much unless you were useful at the time. And now we don't need you anymore. So we have to roll on for the health of the business.
Yeah, you understand that. But equally, if you have, you know, if you have any kind of emotional relationship with your work and any sort of passion for it, that sort of sense of rejection can be pretty challenging to overcome unless, again, it's managed with empathy and understanding that you are not just a skill that's no longer required or a job that can be done in a different country, you are so and so, and you've given X. And that deserves to be recognized by people that are taking you through that process.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:36:51] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's.
[00:36:54] Speaker A: And the emotional baggage as well, like, you know, surviving those periods and knowing that, you know, is it going to be three months, 6:12, who knows? You know, there's not much communication. There's an awful lot that's up in the air. But just trying to remain positive, productive, in a good state of like mental health, when you've got this enormous cloud over you, it's almost without that trust and without that really honest communication, it's kind of, it must become almost an impossible task to, you know, to, to carry on kind of thriving in, in any type of role just so that you know that historic kind of personal situation there. Stephen, if, you know, just reflection, obviously hindsight is an amazing thing, but just reflect, just reflecting on that and with hindsight in mind, if you could, you know, when, when maybe the first bout of redundancies happened and it was like, you know, the clock could start again and you could design what maybe a perfect or not perfect but a much better kind of blueprint for looking after the people that stayed in the business.
You know, what, what roughly would that have looked like just in regards to just trying to, to make things more manageable and bearable for the people that remain?
[00:38:13] Speaker B: I mean, I think, I don't think it would have taken much more because you know, again, we, you understand that you, you, you kind of get a feel for when the phone isn't ringing as much, when you're not as busy, that, that, that, that there are implications when markets slow down and when you know, what you're reading about in the papers, etc, you know, you kind of, it's not coming out of the blue, but I think some sense of,
[00:38:44] Speaker A: you
[00:38:44] Speaker B: know, where we're kind of as the, as the leadership for this business, we're taking responsibility for the business. This is the decision we've had to make. It's not been easy, we can't say necessarily it will be the last. But we don't want to over do because, you know, we're confident in the future of the business. We have to do this now, but we might have to. We'll, you know, we'll again, we'll, we'll come back and if we have to, we'll, we'll sort of let you know in two weeks, four weeks. We'll just keep you closer maybe than we usually would to business performance. So you can kind of be ready, you know, it's not a question of, oh God, it's the fourth Friday rolling around. Is anyone's phone going to start going? It's not rumor based, it's, this is kind of where we're at. And you can still say, I don't know Everything, or I don't know if there'll be other stages. But I think just saying this is why it's, this is sort of why it's happening. This is where we're at with it.
These decisions we have to take and the reasons for them.
And we will be clear with you about when, if anything else has to happen, when that will happen.
And I think just that is enough to say, like, I don't expect to be protected. I don't expect you to not have to do it, you know, but it was just the sort of, the atmosphere of sort of uncertainty and fear and dread. You know, like you say, it starts to impact your day to day, which is only going to make the company situation worse if the people still there aren't focused, they're, you know, nervous as hell, they're not really concentrating, their heads are all over the place. That's. You need people that are there to really be driving, you know, so. So I think, yeah, I don't think it's always enormously complicated, although I do understand that, you know, there'll be competing factors for what I can tell you I can't, when I overstep when I you interpret that, I promise you'll be safe. And I'm not really saying that I do get those things, but I think, yeah, the biggest, the biggest problem or the biggest looming shadow in all situations like this tends to be silence because into that silence rushes rumor and, you know, and conjecture and catastrophizing and all of those kind of things.
I think some simple comms and context around the wider circumstance can really help and just help people feel a part of an understanding of the wider context the business is operating and therefore an understanding of the decisions that have to be taken.
Yeah.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: And I suppose the irony being like some of those fundamental principles of employer branding need to be applied to those processes. The, you know, I suppose over communicating transparency, the honesty, leading with integrity, all that other stuff, but making sure that's possible baked into this process as well is if things aren't going great or they. The next six months, again, still looking super rocky, whatever it is, but over communicating.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:42:04] Speaker B: I think anybody who knows their onions in this space would tell you that the strength of your employer brand and the values it stands by are, you know, that you see them in the bad times, not in the good. That's the stress test for are you really those things? Because, yeah, you're all about sort of openness and honesty 100% in the good times, when you're just being open about growth and new products and a client winning. But when it comes to that openness and honesty about, you know, political, it might be political elements to some customers, it might be opening in markets with challenging human rights records. It might be openness around decisions we have to make in staffing levels and where roles are based. Does that come through?
Do you apply the same principles there or does that get pushed away? And I think because it, sometimes those values do get pushed to one side, it ends up what you're doing then is, is you push the employer brand to one side and say look, you're for the good times. Really. Yeah, because you're for, when we're bringing people in, you're not for all times. And I say, well no, we are for all times. It's a candidate looking in, doesn't give a shit with a, you know, they're looking at us as a whole and if, you know, we were really quiet through all of this or we behave this way over here, or two or three of their friends had a bad experience through the hiring process or through, you know, the, an off boarding process, then that's, that's what they bring in. They don't care that six months later we're hiring again. They've still got all of this information and all of this sort of insight from people previously. So why would they trust our values? Because we're not living up to, never mind what it does to people that are still in the organization looking and going. This got written up on the wall over there pretty clearly what we stand for. Why aren't we doing it?
So yeah, such a good point. And again that's not, and I don't say that's on businesses to sort out, that is on me, on us, on employer brand, to find a way to be taken that seriously to help everybody, to help the sort of senior stakeholders understand that that implication has a long sort of half life to it. And, and that we're not just there for the good times, we're there to support the organization through tougher times as well. But we have to be clear that the values, the proposition that we offer to people, we offer it to them when it's raining as well as it, as well as when it's sunny. You know, that's, that's what we've promised and we can't fall down on that. And where we do, it's our job to your point, about being involved and hearing those conversations, it's our job to point that out.
So look, we're not living up to the promise. I know we've got commercial pressures, I know you've got legal pressure, but it's just my job to say we state this as a value.
We're not doing it. This, this isn't doing it and the people here know it and they're talking to other people and it only takes one of them to talk to a journalist and you know, then we've got a problem. And that, that part of that is our job, you know, I think to really hold the business accountable for the values that, that build all the pillars that build the proposition. I think that is an important part of our job is not just to articulate them, but then to hold us all account to living up to them. 24 7.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Yeah, well said.
And that leads us nicely. We're sort of towards the tail end of the chat and there's an area I'd like to explore if possible, Stephen, and hopefully this kind of segues nicely into it. But bearing in mind everything we've been talking about with tackling the tougher times and just where employer brand sits during tough times, layoffs, etc. Etc.
You know, does the role of employer branding need to be redefined?
So by that I mean, you know, I suppose with employer brand being about truth, trust, experience, you know, is, is there anything that needs to change in, in the function of employer branding, bearing in mind the things we've been talking about today?
[00:46:27] Speaker B: I mean, I can only, I guess just one old man's opinion based on my experience. But yeah, I don't think, and you know, it means that in previous roles I haven't done a good enough job of this really is what it comes down to. But I don't think it's yet taken seriously enough as a discipline in organizations.
And you know, it's not that old and I'm sure people didn't rush to throw money at brand marketers in the first few years after that began to things. So it does take a bit of time to build, to build understanding and build credibility and demonstrate the value you bring. But I think there's a lot more employer brand has to offer to the organizations it operates on behalf of than is currently being utilized. It's probably the best way of putting it. In a lot of cases we're still heavily focused on that attraction and how we bring people into the organization. And then thinking about, well, aren't we advanced? If we get to the point where we think about we want fewer applications to fill this up, that's an extra level. So yeah, that's slightly more nuanced, but it's still focusing us entirely on that front end and not thinking about the rest of people's experience with us or what happens after they leave and how we continue to ensure that they.
People that have worked here before, that still work here.
A feeling that we're living up to the values that we promised or that they are the barometer we use to understand where our pillars need to shift and change. It's not because a competitor changed their brand, it's not because a new social media channel came along. But we're listening to our people. And actually what we're hearing organically is we're a different organization now 12, 18 months later. So to still lean into the same values, there's a disconnect. We need to let them help guide us.
I think, again, too often we're maybe seen as we drive. We make that decision. It's time to refresh the evp, because it's been two years and the agencies say we should.
That's not really the reason. What we should be is we should be just plugged into our business enough to know where are we going?
How are people feeling about where we're at? What are we going to be in two years?
Are these values going to do it for us? Because if not, we should get ahead of that. And that is then a value conversation. To the exec team say, great that we're over here. You know, this is all great, really interesting. And they love the bit around skill sets and how that's going to change, you know, in terms of who we are and what we stand for and the experience we offer to people, that's probably going to change. So let's get ahead of that. Let's listen to you and really talk us through how it's going to change the business. And then we can think about how we let the markets know that this is coming and what sort of process, what it will look like and whether it will involve any restructures as we go. But it's all part of a plan. It's not just happening, it's part of the plan. We told you it would happen, remember, on the journey. Or we talk to our people internally and make sure they're, you know, geared up for it and excited about where it's going to end, you know, that we're ahead of it, we're not reacting to it again. But part of the problem with being often structurally put into TA is we end up needing to work in that way, which is as you know, any TA person will tell you is we're always stuck with the reactive. We're reacting to a role that's a redundancy or something. Something or other. We're not ever given enough information to really get ahead of it and go right into, I know who we're going to need in two years. I've got time to really be smart about selecting them, talking to them, bringing them in, hiring them. Great, I can do this properly. Finally. No, it's all like, shit, this is on fire. Or we've just opened a new office over here and forgot to tell you about it. Or we won this, kind of promised a bunch of stuff we can't deliver yet. Go find me some people.
So. And we end up, I think, stuck in that place. So I think, I don't know if it's re defining, but probably, I think there's an expanded scope is probably how I think about it. I think we can do more and be more useful to the business, to our senior stakeholders all across the business. We can be more useful than I think they believe we can be today.
And so that, for me is the biggest job, is just to be clear about all of the different ways we can help and add value if we get what we need from them.
[00:51:01] Speaker A: Yeah, because there's so much work, isn't there, being done within employer brand functions, you know, around evp, I suppose, architects of the culture ultimately.
And, and then obviously you've got attraction, engagement, all of the external stuff, but there's, there's so much else going on within the business, things that are going well, things that aren't going so well. But it just, it just feels like, because employee branding has that, it's got that stamp on it, hasn't it? It's got the branding, the marketing stamp on it. It's like, yeah, that's what they do, that's the bucket they're in.
And yeah, I know we, I know we make them do all of that other stuff, like basically completely define and create blueprints for our entire organizational culture, but we'll just give them the stamp of branding or marketing and put them in that bucket. But it just feels like the role of employer branding and all of the, the facets of a business that it touches, like it could, under different circumstances, it could have so much more prominence in an organization if it was taken a little bit more seriously and given, given a bit more budget. And I think that kind of leads into exactly what you were saying there. But it's, or even, or even maybe
[00:52:16] Speaker B: I don't at this point, maybe I'm not banging on the drum and demanding a seat at the boardroom table or a load of extra budget, but I think if we're plugged in to the right conversations internally. So those conversations you're saying around business strategy, around workforce strategy, around culture, if that's run by separate team, great, but great just to be close to it, we can start to join those dots internally against, you know, and does that raise any flags around who we say we are as a place to work, how we should behave? But equally, we've got access again, to all of the external interactions sites, yes, competitor data, but also audiences and what they're looking for and expecting and motivated by. And so we can bring that to bear and not say it will change your decision, Mr. CEO, because you've got your priorities. But if you knew that in ex market or, you know, candidates at this point are much really motivated at this moment by these three things and we're moving away.
That's data, that's insight, that's information that helps your decision making, you might, it might not be strong enough to change it, but I can bring it to you. Otherwise, in two years, you're telling TA off for not being able to hire you the right people. Whereas we knew two years ago that this message, this direction was going to give us this challenge in, in the market. But we weren't in a position to, to offer it because we weren't in the conversation. We didn't know it was happening. So I don't ultimately, obviously I would have, you know, run the whole thing because it's really important and I think we should be at the boardroom table. I think it is that important. But yeah, I would settle for just being a bit more plugged into some of these conversations.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: Privy to the conversations. Yeah.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: Does this.
Is there a question I just need to pose from an employer reputation point of view about this and I should be the person that does that thinking that goes into those, you know, meetings and sessions to say, does this have an implication on who we are as a place to work? And just raise the question so we have the chance as a group to answer it and be comfortable with it. It doesn't hit us left field later.
That's what should be. I should be able to do, because then I. But I should also then if I know about these things, I can be thinking, how is that going to change what I've got planned for the brand in the next two years? What can I start to think about? And Talk about, because I know where we're going in two to three years and I can really plan with confidence. Not just every, not just a year plan. I can do a proper three year plan.
So yeah, I'd love more money, obviously, and more people and more importance and a better title. But I think just some of those conversations to be taken seriously enough to say you should, you need to hear this, so you need to see this and understand what the implications are. And I don't think, at least in my experience, that happens enough at the moment.
[00:55:12] Speaker A: Agree. And I think something you said a minute or two ago that really struck a chord with me was that employee branding could just be so much more useful if it was like plugged in to the right conversations. And I think that's just such a critical point, isn't it? It's like the function often sits there and it just needs to be plugged into the right departments, right areas of business, right conversations. And it could open up this whole brand new world of benefit that so many companies leverage. But just try and make an employer branding department as, as useful as you possibly can because it's probably being underutilized at the moment. In regards to business benefit,
[00:55:58] Speaker B: I would say that the, that I don't blame CEOs or executives or anyone else that's, that's on us as practitioners, I think to go and knock on those doors and try and be heard and we probably don't, personally speaking, haven't done that enough and you know, there's more to do there. So I think it's not incumbent on anyone to come and offer us stuff. No, I think there's lots of opportunity, if we're minded to go and find it and knock on some doors and say, look at this, or here's what I'm seeing here, or here's one here. If we match it with that, look at this. You know, we can do that proactive stuff. It's just another habit or a confidence thing or knowing that right door to knock on. But I think it's, you know, it's really for, for us to, to take the opportunity.
[00:56:44] Speaker A: Yeah, really good point, Stephen. It's been really, really good chatting to you. I'm super grateful that you've taken the time out to, to talk to me today. But yeah, thanks ever so much.
[00:56:54] Speaker B: Not at all. It's been a real, real pleasure. The time really does go, doesn't it? When you get into you once again, once you get on the soapbox, start ra.
It's been really, really interesting and a slightly unusual topic. Topic again, you know, slightly unusual lens to look at employer, brand through. So I think that's quite, again, a really sort of fresh way of just thinking about work that we do and where we can. Where we can add some value to people.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you brought some real gold to the conversation. I do appreciate that. But, yeah, thanks so much and look forward to catching up with you at one of the many events that we've got looming. So, yeah, see you soon, hopefully.
[00:57:30] Speaker B: Yes, likewise. Cheers, Chris.
[00:57:32] Speaker A: Take care. Bye. Love it.
